Sergio Pereira on building remote teams, fractional CTOs, and fostering human connections
This is the debugging work podcast. Welcome, everyone. I'm Derek Hatchard. I spent my career in the tech industry and companies large and small, so I've seen firsthand how much modern work can be a hot mess. This podcast is a chance to discuss ways to make work better.
Derek Hatchard:Let's get started. My guest today is Sergio Pereira. Sergio was an advocate for remote work years before the pandemic forced everyone to start thinking about it. Over the past decade, he has worked in full time and fractional CTO roles, hiring and leading teams distributed all over the world. He is the creator of the remote work academy, the Remote Jobs Brain Trust, and the Remote Work newsletter.
Derek Hatchard:We'll hear from Sergio in just a moment after a brief word from our sponsor. This episode is sponsored by Botworks. Botworks is your company's new AI task force at a fraction of the cost of an in house team. For a fixed monthly fee, you get guaranteed monthly capacity for new development on chatbots, integrations, tools, and workflow automations, while Botworks handles all the ongoing maintenance. And you can cancel at any time and take your code with you.
Derek Hatchard:Botworks gives you the expertise of industry leading engineers for less than the cost of a single junior developer. Take your company from the Internet age to the intelligence age. Go to botworks.dev and save 40% on your 1st month. That's botworks.dev and tell them that Derek sent you. Hi, Sergio.
Derek Hatchard:Welcome to debugging work. It is a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you for making the time to do this.
Sergio Pereira:Thank you, Derek. Thanks for the invitation and thanks for having me.
Derek Hatchard:I have been following you for a while. I really respect the thoughts that you've been you've been putting out into the world about, you know, what does it mean to, you know, to work remotely. And I just wanna have a conversation here about building a remote first team. I think that that's a a unique problem that a lot of leaders haven't, tackled before, and I know that you've thought deeply about sort of hiring and mentoring. So maybe let's start there.
Derek Hatchard:Can you, like, just share a little bit about how how you approach this unique challenge, what your strategies are, what works really well for you?
Sergio Pereira:Yeah. So it's it's fun because, it has been a long time since I did it differently, to be honest. I I've been building teams fully remote, since around 2016, 17. So time flies. It's it's already a few years in.
Sergio Pereira:But I evolved a lot my understanding of remote as well. For me right now, there are a few things that I take for granted just because I've been doing it for for so long. For instance, hiring is something that I recall used to be a a nightmare. Like, I would need to to find the best people in my city, probably engage recruiters, you know, compete for the local breaks and and all that. So interviews would be in the office.
Sergio Pereira:So even scheduling and all that, I I recall that being a nightmare. Like, I would do nothing else pretty much that week or a couple weeks of intensive hiring. And and remote kind of changes the game because I I put the job opportunities up and, suddenly I get hundreds of applicants. And and I need just need to review them, get them through technical sort of testing grounds, and and it's much easier to hire, like, by order of magnitude. So hiring is definitely something that I would not ditch, remote work at all, because I think it's it's it's made much, much more peaceful.
Derek Hatchard:One of the things that I have found that can be overwhelming hiring remotely is once you've opened up your role to the world, the size of the applicant pool can be hard. How like, how are you managing that piece around, like, you now you gets you can get so many good candidates, but how do you then narrow that down?
Sergio Pereira:But but that's the good problems in life. Right? The the worst problem than that I used to have before is, oh, I have my my job, lifting up for a week, and it's like a handful of candidates. And I need to to have a recruiter to squeeze in another, like, 10 candidates or so. You know?
Sergio Pereira:It feels really good to have, like, 200 people to to review. And, indeed, as you say, it creates a new set of problems. Like, okay. Now it's it's maybe too much. How can I get through all of them?
Sergio Pereira:And and what I believe it does is instead of me having to sell aggressively to candidates, like having a first round of interview and then tell the candidate how good the company is and why this is a solid opportunity and why they should be really interested in joining. Now it's kind of the other way around. I can have a first part of the process. For example, more focused on technical rounds with, like, take home tests or stuff like that that validate both candidate's motivation and candidate's skills, so that then the first round of interview is a short technical chat. And only after that, with the few remaining candidates that have already proved themselves to a certain degree, we go through the proper, typical interviews, after that.
Sergio Pereira:So I kind of flipped the interview process around instead of sort of HR chat, technical interview, culture interview. Now it's more like first bit of the process is, mostly asynchronous. Candidates complete, some some tests on their own work, on their own time. They submit some work. That work is sort of reviewed automatically for the first bit, like, imagine for most of the the roles I hire are software development type of roles.
Sergio Pereira:So that is typically they they open a pull request, and there's some script merging script merging, running a bunch of tests, unit tests against that and basically returning a sort of a score, and they would pass upon a certain number of tests that goes through successfully. So that is something I would not be able to do, before, and now I can. And, ultimately, it results in having, like, 10 or 20 candidates that are super engaged. They have proved, relevant, technical skills, and then I start the proper to be processed with those.
Derek Hatchard:That's super insightful, and that is probably an an advantage that people who haven't hired a lot of remote workers probably haven't or at least haven't been open to hiring from anywhere. Haven't experienced that lately. You don't have to sell us hard upfront. I love that actually. Like go straight to the prove your prove that you have the technical chops and then let's figure out if this is the right role because you're already motivated.
Derek Hatchard:I can find 20 people who are highly motivated and are competent from anywhere as opposed to having to really scramble to get them in my local market, especially if I'm a small local market.
Sergio Pereira:Exactly. And sometimes it's not just small. It's it's really expensive, especially in in some cities in the US. It's really competitive. Like, hiring someone locally in, let's say, the Bay Area, it's it's a bloodbath.
Sergio Pereira:Still, even in the out market, it's still a bloodbath.
Derek Hatchard:Yeah. Yeah. Have you have you found that your remote hires also have longer tenures?
Sergio Pereira:Well, there are people who stay long. There are people who stay short. Obviously, there's everything. I think, talking about the companies I worked at and the clients I worked with, and in in most of them, I was heavily involved in either hiring or managing or both. There's actually a lot of data around average tenure in in tech companies for software development roles, which is on average 18 months or so.
Sergio Pereira:There's even these charts like Uber, Google, whatnot, the average standard for for each of them. I have, for instance, a team that I put together back in 2017, first time I worked remote. And most of the people in that team, they are still working there. So that is a much long more longer than than average tenure that is, like, 6 years so far, 7 years, which is way above average for for any tech measure. On the flip side, you definitely get on on the companies that try to, hire people from low cost of living areas on salaries that are clearly low for US standards, although they they accept them because it's still interesting for their local market rates, Those people tend to have short tenors because, obviously, they use that as a stepping stone.
Sergio Pereira:They know there are companies paying rates independent of location, so they would eventually move and apply to those and get one and and move. And sometimes tenures are like 1 year, 18 months, or something like that. I don't particularly think that remote work affects tenure negatively, except for this case where you purposefully underpay people because they are in places that you know the cost of living is lower, I mean, they will eventually find a better role and churn for that for that reason. Whenever you pay, remote roles properly, and people don't have that need to leave for the money, tenures, I believe, in my experience, tend to be actually much more, longer than average, on on on deck. And I have a track record of teams I put together where people are still there after, in that case, 6 years, 4 years.
Sergio Pereira:I have a team that most of the team is still there after 4 years. And then, obviously, there are companies who have done layoffs or start ups that struggled or, teams that had changes in leadership and some people left for for those reasons. So there's always these sort of things that happen in the day to day that cause people to leave, for some reason. So that is, not people leaving because, you know, they they are not well where they are.
Derek Hatchard:Yeah. I think that's an under underappreciated benefit of of remote is if you give someone the ability to to structure their their their work their work life in the way that makes sense for their personal situation, you've got a it's that's so customized and bespoke to the individual. That's that is incredibly hard to give up. And I've heard I have heard you I've heard you say, you know, I really don't care how long someone spends working on something in terms of, like, how what part of the day that they're doing the work as long as they're getting the outcome. Right?
Derek Hatchard:And that is so valuable to the individual. Like, if I know that my kid has piano practice after school and I need to go pick them up and I'm gonna be at a you know, away from my desk for 2 hours, but I can you know, I'll I'll make up that time after my kid goes to bed. You end up making your job fit your life and you still bring the value to the company. I mean, that is such a win win in my in my opinion.
Sergio Pereira:Yeah. I I think, that is probably the the biggest reason why people actually have longer turner tenures in in remote work is I mean, there's nothing to to dislike unless there are obviously specific things about the company. But you get to work from, let's say, Portugal in my case, or India or Brazil or Spain or whatever, to a start up in the US that pays, US salary. Well, a low US salary, which for those local markets is actually a very, very interesting salary. It's a win win, so it's a sort of sustainable relationship because the company from the US is sort of affording in in salary, budget.
Sergio Pereira:But those employees feel that they are earning a really high salary for comparing to their local peers, and they can basically manage their day. And, most of these technical positions or increasingly, they tend to not be, overloaded with meetings. So one thing I had in my early days of remote work working for US start ups is that I would have a lot of calls in late night, my time, which is not so nice if you have kids and all that. Now more and more teams are distributed. So, it's not like everyone doing US hours.
Sergio Pereira:It's just them self organizing, whatever time works for for for them all. So people basically don't really have an incentive to leave. They are in a company that pays them well, that gives them this level of freedom, and they just need to deliver, which is actually just the one thing that the company needs. It's like, I need you to deliver the product or the service or the the marketing campaign or whatever that I need to make my business grow. So I think it's a super sustainable type of relationship that tends to have longer 10 years in my in my experience.
Derek Hatchard:You're a fractional CTO. Actually, can you define that quite quickly for everyone, fractional CTOs? And then I have a follow on question for
Sergio Pereira:you. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. So yeah.
Sergio Pereira:You're right. At the moment, I work as a fractional CTO, for early stage startups, mostly US based. So what that means is that instead of coming in full time and aiming for a long term collaboration, I, work with these companies when they are going through some period of change. Imagine a startup that has just raised funding, and they want to basically teach their software development agency and build an in house team or they want to replace their MVP that is glued together with Zapier jobs or whatever and will not scale at all. They want to basically refactor that from scratch into a proper bespoke build done in the house, scalable, architecture and all that.
Sergio Pereira:I basically help companies go through that. So my collaborations tend to be, much, well, shorter than a typical full time job, like 6 to, you know, 6 months, sometimes even shorter, other times 1 year, sometimes over a year. I am typically not full time even for that period. I am either part time, sometimes even lower, like tech advisory type of capacity, and I take part of the scope of work that would be the scope of work for a full time CTO. I either take ownership of the technical part, the factoring, and I coordinate the team around that, or the hiring, for example, building an in house team and then phasing out the old team and documenting the whole thing and the processes and getting this team up to success or a mix of all these things because, obviously, every company is different.
Sergio Pereira:So I adapt, a bit to the circumstances. But the point is I join, I get the company through from a to b, And then eventually, my job is is successful. So I phase myself out. Well, obviously, talking with the the company and all that. But when my knob my job is done, I typically phase out my hours and I come back to a sort of advisory role or no formal role at all, non call or something like that.
Sergio Pereira:So that is what a fractional CTO is and frankly, I'm I'm really enjoying it at the moment, working with companies, from different industries, different tech stacks, even slightly different stages of growth, different founder personalities, different team positions around the world. And and I get to do the same problems again and again and again. So I become even better at it rather than if I had I if I was to do it every, like, 3 or 4 years, for a new startup that I would be, assembling from scratch. So, yeah, that's how I work at the moment.
Derek Hatchard:Thank you for for defining that. So as a fractional CTO, you've worked with numerous teams. You would have teams that have have already formed where you're coming in. You've got examples when you're replacing an agency and building a team. Earlier we're talking about meetings.
Derek Hatchard:People who've grown up in much in a synchronous culture especially in an office culture are just used to being able to talk to somebody right now face to face or we're all gonna get in the room tomorrow. Can you share a little bit some combination of your experiences, but also your approach and what you see is what works really well and what doesn't work well in these teams in order in order for them to be successful? How do you nurture a highly effective remote team?
Sergio Pereira:So, what you're describing is typical office culture, like tap on the shoulder, let's, you know, get into the meeting room and discuss this whatever thing, that also happens in remote teams, you know, on Slack, for instance. Like, you you nag people and then some teams have Slack buzzing all day, and they can't really do any meaningful work because there is no focus, unless they mute something, there. They are constantly getting distracted and pulled into meetings and thrown urgent work to be done, and it it becomes a very havoc type of firefighting department that really mimics the typical vibe in the office, which is people tapping on the shoulder, calling people, into into meeting rooms and discussing, something over, you know, the water cooler or whatever. Those dynamics also happen in remote teams if you don't do anything proactively against that because, in in fact, I don't think that is very productive at all. So what I tend to defend is the creation of asynchronous first processes.
Sergio Pereira:It's not that people don't talk with each other, obviously. It's just that if the default is so loud and busy, we just want to make the default, you know, peaceful and, you know, getting into a meeting, getting, you know, together, or that tends to be the exception. And when done, it's done on purpose to discuss certain complex topic or plan a new quarter or you know, these bigger things tend to be better discussed in such, collaborative environments, which I think meetings are great for. Now the day to day transactional types of things, I believe, can be done to a large extent, asynchronously. And that's what I encourage my clients to do, especially because, that untaps the opportunity to work with people around the world.
Sergio Pereira:So for a US startup, that means tapping into talent pools like India, Philippines, Pakistan, etcetera. Whereas if you are working fully synchronous, those people are sleeping at the time you are working. So you would basically be limited to LATAM, which is nice as well, obviously, as a title tool, but I think you would not be able to make it work across time zones in a meeting having culture. So that is what I encourage my clients to define goals pretty well, so that everyone understands the company, the business, the the product, like how the product fulfills the business and creates value, value meaning typically revenue, ideally. There's this north star metric that all activities in the company index to.
Sergio Pereira:And, whenever, let's call it, a software engineer is developing a feature, they know why they are developing that. How is that building contributing to the business in terms of this North Star metric? Like, why is this important? And then I typically invest a lot in documentation so that people so this understanding of the business and the product plus a good enough level of documentation, tends to make people more independent. Imagine you are, working in, you know, Canada, and all your immediate peers for whatever effort you are doing are like in Europe, in Asia, time zones.
Sergio Pereira:They are all unavailable. They are all sleeping. And you are blocked, so you are less likely to get into that blocked position if you have a good understanding of the business, the product, and a good level of documentation about, let's call it technical, details about the repo you are working on or the server you are deploying to or whatever the real the the effort details are so that you can take your best judgment and and use that knowledge to do whatever you feel is best for for your team and for to fulfill the goals that you are aiming to. So I think, first of all, is investing in people not needing to tap each other on the shoulder, even over Slack, in the first place. And then it's creating processes for that to happen.
Sergio Pereira:For example, feature planning can, for the most cases, be done, asynchronous, but you need to be proactive in teaching people in the team to actually be responsive because the other flip side of async is await. So if people don't have a culture of actually contributing to those to those materials, then everyone is in a wait mode, which sucks. Nothing gets done. So you need to be proactive. I tend to tell my teams that great freedom comes with great responsibility.
Sergio Pereira:So responsibility is the responsibility to, actually collaborate to the collateral, follow the deadlines. Like, if there's a feature planning that I started or the product manager started and these two people, like the front end person and the back end person, are required to chime in with whatever technical approach, requirements. I mean, they have, let's say, 24 hours to to read through it and and get some some some, feedback there, and so on and so forth. So, with this level of shared responsibility, I think there's a a it's viable to to create an async culture that works.
Derek Hatchard:What's your advice to people who are working from home in an async culture and then end up feeling like they don't have enough human connection at work because they're never talking to anybody? Everything is written and and asynchronous.
Sergio Pereira:I think that happens a lot. I I also feel, historically, people have over indexed to, extract all of their social life from work, which I think is is is a bug, not a feature. It's it's a byproduct of a messed up work culture, which I think employers have incentivized over the years because the more ties you build with your workspace, the less likely you are to leave or, you know, even if you are not promoted or you don't get the raise or your manager doesn't treat you well, you have those bonds sort of tying you to to to that workplace. I think in remote work, it's it's it's more difficult to to foster that type of, ties. So it's very common for people to feel more detached, which I think for a great part is actually pretty good, because, people are kind of free to to seek socialization outside work.
Sergio Pereira:There are people doing that, for example, working from co working spaces, and they see the, you know, same faces every day. Or there are people who basically work with family members or or friends or people who just work by themselves and coordinate their agenda around going to the gym or doing some hobby or some whatever activity that they enjoy. So I think there are downsides and and upsides. And mostly the downside of people not feeling socially connected with with their peers at work is basically a a byproduct of, you know, being more independent to work from wherever they want. There are people for example, I have a client, with a a lead developer who travels the world.
Sergio Pereira:He has this goal of visiting all countries on Earth. So whenever I have a meeting with him, he's literally in a different country. So the other day, he was in in Cape Verde. The the one previously was in Mexico. The previous one, he was in Brazil.
Sergio Pereira:So he's always in a different country. So for him, his his his thing is to travel. He's not socializing. It's just meeting new play new people in new places he's never seen and and posting it on Instagram or whatever. That's fine.
Sergio Pereira:I mean, that is a way of behaving that was just not available if all of us were working in the office. So I think remote work, if anything, opens up possibilities. Certainly, some people are struggling because infinite freedom sometimes comes with a blocker. Like, if I can do anything, what will I do? You know?
Sergio Pereira:So I think, people need to be more proactive about their socialization and not just trust their work environment to provide that.
Derek Hatchard:Yeah. I think that's really wise. It forces you to be a little bit intentional about your life design and and what's important to you and, you know, your relationships outside outside of work are going to be more durable because work changes.
Sergio Pereira:If you think about it, yeah, what I what I come to the conclusion when I talk with people is, most of us have worked with dozens, if not hundreds of people, like, directly over our professional life, and probably we kept in touch with just a handful of them. Right? It's it's unlikely for people to stay connected with all these dozens of people as they move from job to job. Everything is kind of transactional and circumstantial. So as you say, with remote work, we get the opportunity to be more purposeful about relationships we build and the the the lifestyle design, which I think is is amazing.
Sergio Pereira:Right?
Derek Hatchard:A 100% agree with that. I have one more question for you, and then I wanna ask you about some of the things that you have on the go. It's super interesting. You've been an advocate and a participant in remote work since, you know, what, 8 years or so. How has your philosophy and approach evolved if it has pre, mid, and post pandemic?
Sergio Pereira:It evolved a lot. Sometimes we talk about remote work as it being binary. Like, I I used to go to the office. Now I'm at home. But my processes while working remote and managing Teams remote have morphed a lot, Not necessarily because of the pandemic, because, for me, in terms of work, it was just business as usual because I was already at home.
Sergio Pereira:I didn't have that, big drastic change from one day to the other coming home. I was already in the same place and all my team as well. Certainly, there were a lot of other dynamics, but, you know, affecting people in many ways. But but in terms of the work processes, it didn't necessarily affect that much. In the early days of remote work, I was basically mimicking the office online.
Sergio Pereira:I was hiring people from my city and then my country. We would have these daily standards that we'd jump on a meeting. We would be constantly on Slack. We would jump on meetings for no reason. Like, oh, what about this task?
Sergio Pereira:Oh, let let's jump on a meeting so I can tell you. And it's like something that could be a one minor update on on Slack, or structured Notion, would already tell and avoid question in the 1st place. So that was the early days. Then I extended that to hiring within a range of time zones around me, And the goal of that is, okay, let's not be on meetings, like, all day. Let's bucket meetings around certain hours of the day so that that we overlap all of us.
Sergio Pereira:And the rest, let's leave it to do the rest of the work because I was already figuring out there's a lot of work that benefits from not having distractions. So let's respect that. And then I believe, I went a step further, which is, okay, let's actually make this latter part a default. Let's make this deep work state, of no distractions a default and then just plan the the meetings and the the ceremonies, around that. And then the meetings started becoming like a certain day of the week, certain time, you know, things that would clearly already feel like the exception.
Sergio Pereira:And that it was sort of a simple step to to to having processes that are, async by default. I believe most people working remotely are still kind of in the first phase of mimicking the office and being frustrated because they are constantly on meetings, which I totally understand why.
Derek Hatchard:You said 2 really, interesting things during this conversation that kind of intersect that I love, which is you said, you know, make the default deep work, and you missed it earlier. You said make the default peaceful. And I absolutely love that. Those are gonna be those are my pull quotes out of this whole conversation. For folks who are who are anywhere along this journey around remote work and they're looking for insights, you have several things already.
Derek Hatchard:You have your newsletter, which I subscribe to. You have something called the remote Joe's brain trust. Trust. Can you just give us the quick pitch for those? Like, what what are they what type of people should sign up for them?
Sergio Pereira:Yeah. I've been I've been writing online for for a few years now, and, some common challenges arise. One is about the processes. Like, how can people, implement asynchronous processes because, obviously, they need all people in the team, coming together on those. And for that, I created Mastering Remote Work, which is my, I'd say, flagship course.
Sergio Pereira:Then there's another big set of people, which is people who understood, this new reality that anyone from anywhere can work from companies in any country. And people want to figure out how to do it. And for those, I created the, remote jobs for interest and, which is a course in the community lectured by myself, helping people navigate, you know, all these application process and and, how to stand out for those remote jobs. I talk about all these in my remote work academy, remotedashwork.i0. And I also have my newsletter there, which you mentioned, which I basically touch all these things in different editions based on the topic I I select to write about each day, comes out every Friday.
Sergio Pereira:So, it's getting really popular, which I I love. So let's keep it growing that way.
Derek Hatchard:Alright. I will put links in the show notes to to all to your courses, courses course sorry. How many courses do you
Sergio Pereira:have? I have 2 courses.
Derek Hatchard:Yeah. Right. Courses newsletter, the Brain Trust. You also think of Jobs Copilot that you're working on.
Sergio Pereira:I do. I do. I I'm very, very excited about being being, prominently a builder again, in that specific project, which I I'm addressing basically 10 hours a week to to develop. And that is a compliment from the learnings I'm getting in the remote jobs, brain trust, which is people, especially those who have full time jobs but are so scared of, layoffs these days because the market seems so uncertain, They want to apply to jobs so they have the feeling of safety and they can get their salary offers and all that. They just like the time.
Sergio Pereira:So I created the job scope pilot dot ai, which basically, offloads a lot of that process, like, which is done automatically. And people are really enjoying it. It's still early days. I'm enjoying building it and launching it.
Derek Hatchard:When when does it launch?
Sergio Pereira:It's launching, so we are recording, January 2024. It's launching probably, yeah, by the end of this month. So by the time this comes out, it's probably already live. Awesome. So yeah.
Sergio Pereira:Yeah. Jobscopeilot dot ai. If you are looking for a job or or thinking of that, you should definitely sign up and, get your LinkedIn profile there, and it does the the rest to you. And hopefully, you get some interviews booked automatically.
Derek Hatchard:I I love it. These are the sort of problems that I want AI to solve for the world. I do not care very much about the, like, image generation. I think that these things are are the things that really make a difference to to most people. You've been very generous with your time, Sergio.
Derek Hatchard:I have a lightning round for you, 3 questions, short answers, I will put out anything that you recommend into the show notes with links. First of all, what is a a book, podcast, or video that you would recommend to people?
Sergio Pereira:Yeah. I would recommend the podcast from Arvind Kahl, the bootstrapped, the founder, which is inspiring a lot on the JobScope pilot journey. I think it changes the perspective. I come from a very VC backed type of mindset, and learning from bootstrapped founders, how it can be done so much simpler, I think adds a lot of value and and, perspective.
Derek Hatchard:Yeah. Plus one to that one, and Arvid lives in Canada, so double thumbs up for me. Is is there a person, place, or thing that you'd like to shut out?
Sergio Pereira:Yeah. I would like to to shout out to Google yours, the the the writer of the Pragmatic Engineer newsletter, which I think quickly made it to being basically, something you cannot mix if you work in tech, especially in leadership positions. It's definitely my probably, number 1 or close to that source of insights around the industry, best practices, how company x does it, kind of insight, so I I can only recommend it.
Derek Hatchard:Plus one of that one as well. I love I love that newsletter. Okay. What is the most important superpower to develop in the modern workforce?
Sergio Pereira:Yeah. That is a challenging one in the times of AI, really, because a lot of skills now or at least a lot of people feel that their skills will eventually be replaced, and that is a fragile place to be. I think the the superpowers that allow us to deliver value regardless of whatever technology advancements is that we will be building technology for people. So the ability to communicate, to sell efficient, to connect with other people in in in in ways that are not simply transactional, I think is definitely a superpower. I would bucket that into communication more broadly.
Sergio Pereira:But it's communication in this more purposeful, nontransactional sense of the word, build human connections, you know, create, you know, to sell to clients, to hire people into your team, to, you know, build partnerships and and and all that.
Derek Hatchard:Well, thank you so much for your time. I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, and I know folks listening are gonna get a ton of value out of it. So thank you.
Sergio Pereira:Thanks for having me. I enjoyed it. It was fun. Thank you.
Derek Hatchard:Find show notes at podcast.debuggingwork.com. Podcast over.
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